You just can’t because the times have changed. I mean just looking specifically at the African-American situation. I mean, hello, Barack obama has gotten twice the number of contributors of anybody else in the race. I mean, you know, things have changed. Some of the kind of humor you used to do you just can’t do anymore. So that’s just the way it is.
I think there’s something else going on here, also linked to this Kathleen Parker/female soldiers thing, that plays into the Republicans’ Victimized White Male base and the narratives that appeal to such a base.
People like this really do feel put-upon that they can’t give in to their basest instincts. They really feel like they’ve been somehow reduced because they’re not allowed to reduce others. What Fineman is basically saying is that left to his own devices, he’d be happy to mock black women for being black and being women. Left to his own devices, he’d be happy to use snotty code language to put other human beings in their places. Left to his own devices, he’d be a total fucking ignorant jackoff. And it’s outside pressure that is keeping him from being so.
Some of the kind of humor you used to do you just can’t do anymore.
It’s an imposition, to not be a racist asshole. And it’s hard on these guys, isn’t it? It’s so rough that they can no longer mock the women and the minorities and, I don’t know, I guess you’d throw retard jokes in there, too, because they all seem to be about 12 years old. I don’t know how any of them manage to feed and dress themselves with all that’s been taken away from them.
Times have changed. We have to refrain from scorning people because of their race and gender and presumed sexual history. We have to “allow” women to serve alongside men even though it pisses men off. We have to be nice to “them.” If only we lived back in the good old days. Had Fineman been around back then, no doubt, he’d be much more comfortable, freed of the burden to control himself so strictly.
Free to be the asshole he apparently wants to be.
A.
I think these are also the same people that complain about stuff being “rammed down their throat,” ie, when someone from a formerly oppressed class walks on their hind legs like regular people, they are ramming their lifestyle or beliefs down the throats of these poor beseiged folks who want to keep up their illusion that they’re living in some other, distant, simpler and of course, better, time and place.
Like the 19th century.
It is an accident of birth that Imus and Fineman are in the group that likes to believe they are way superior to other groups. Either of them could just as easily been born as someone “who knows his place”.
But, you know, it is also an accident of birth that I, and most of us, are native born Americans, you know, that superior group of people. We, too, could just as easily have been born as a Mexican border resident, on the south side of that border. Then it would be us who longed for the opportunities present just a few miles north, but those superior people, who accidently got born there would be spouting off about how we don’t belong up there, unless we are a “guest worker”, willing to work for very low pay, with no benefits, for a short time only.
Well put, A.
I belong to a very old health club in SoCal. Professionals, old money and the like. You should hear some of the shit that emminates from that locker room. Thankfully, I rarely hear it anymore, as I am not shy about calling anyone on their shit. Anytime, anywhere. I just don’t give a fuck when it comes to calling out ignorant bullshit. That’s not to say that I’ve eliminated the problem nor changed anyone’s mind. People should know that it’s not about “political correctness”. It’s about what’s fucking RIGHT. But, I realize that I can do little to effect real change against a lifetime of ego-centrism.
Empathy, the basis for all moral action, is currently listed in grave condition and not expected to survive. . .
What really gets me about all this is that there are those of us who would be embarrassed to just *think* such things! We’d feel kind of bad that we still had those thoughts in our heads. We’d certainly never say them out loud, and we’d most certainly never *defend* our right to say such things.
But there are those in this world who don’t think that way.
I’m not that much younger than Fineman or Imus, nor am I (I suspect) that different from them in many ways. So what is it that makes me part of the former group, and Imus and Fineman part of the latter?
That’s not a rhetorical question. I’m really trying to figure it out, because I don’t get it. I don’t think it’s just that I’m a woman and have that sense of being part of a formerly (maybe) joked-about class. There’s something more at work here, because I’ve heard this kind of snottiness from women, from minorities, from all sorts of people.
Is it empathy, as munkihaid said?
Gee. Look at all we’ve lost. No more minstrel shows either.
Poor white guys, life is rough all over. When I read what Fineman said I was shocked that he didn’t understand how bad he sounded.
It is like something you would not believe if you read in a novel. How the hell does Imus get people to defend him when he says NAPPY HEADED HOs is unbelievable. I have always LOVED Tom Oliphant. I used to love when he would be on Al Franken. Even though he is the geekiest looking guy in the history of geeks I developed a little crush on him. Guess that is over. What the hell is he thinking?
And, you know, these clowns are the VERY first to holler, whine, bitch and/or moan when their brittle, fragile “sensibilities” are offended.
What Fineman said to Imus is not so shocking. What’s shocking is him saying it on the national airwaves. I mean, I can completely see Fineman pulling Imus aside and saying this to him in private. I guess Fineman’s fealty to Imus made him forget he was on the air.
I’m fascinated by the dominance of the rascist aspect of the Imus comments over the clear sexist nature of the comments. Kudos to NOW for also speaking out about the Imus remarks but the media narrative is skewing overwhelmingly towards racism, not sexism.
Calling women getting an education on an athletic scholarship ‘whores’ is sexism, not racism.
Here’s Rutgers coach C. Vivian Stringer’s statement: “I am deeply saddened and angered by Mr. Imus’ statements regarding the members of the Rutgers women’s basketball team. These talented, articulate young women put forth a great deal of hard work and effort this past season to reach the nation’s grandest stage – the NCAA title game.
Throughout the year, these gifted young ladies set an example for the nation that through hard work and perseverance, you can accomplish anything if you believe. Without a doubt, this past season was my most rewarding in 36 years of coaching. This young team fought through immeasurable odds to reach the highest pinnacle and play for the school’s first national championship in a major sport.
To serve as a joke of Mr. Imus in such an insensitive manner creates a wedge and makes light of the efforts of these classy individuals, both as women and as women of color. It is unfortunate Mr. Imus sought to tarnish Rutgers’ spirit and success. Should we not, as adults, send a message of encouragement to young people to aspire to the highest levels as my team did this season?”
Coach Stringer’s emphasis is more on the fact that these are young women although she also mentions they are both women and women of color.
The AP headline is ‘Racial slur gets Imus 2-week suspension’.
I don’t know why the sexist aspect of his remarks isn’t more of an issue.
It is an interesting insight, that I think touches on what I is a fundamental difference in world view about the uses of power. What do you do with power, even the lowly power to offend? Those without power typically would like the powerful to forebear using that power. Those with power want to use it and resent being told they should forebear. Either you think those with power shouldn’t use it against weaker people or you think that’s when power works best. Are you just as much an asshole if you insult people who are more powerful than you? It may seem an easy answer that it is immoral to exploit your power against weaker people. It a bit of luxury though to have such a surplus of power and a bountiful supply of weaker people that you wouldn’t consider it appropriate to use. It is a luxury gained by ancestors using their power. A bit far afield in discussing some rude offensive comments, but it seems like a litmus test, like animal cruelty and snowmobiles in the parks.
Very astute analysis, Athenae. You’re dead on. I’d add that this is the inevitable death-gasp of the white patriarchy. The white patriarchy is in its “last throes,” if you will, and so of course it tries to cling to its old ways.
Speaking as a white adult male, I say to hell with the whiney white males who think themselves victimized because it’s no longer acceptable to be racist assholes. Personally, I only feel empowered when EVERYONE feels empowered.
When I was a snot nosed 12-year old I never ever got any jollys from hearing the other snot-nosed 12-yearold boys telling racist and sexist jokes.
I felt ashamed.
The thing about Fineman is that “back in the day” he wouldn’t have been allowed to joke around with someone like Imus… because he’d be one of the ones Imus was slagging off. Oh wait –he already is.
Once again, high school all over. The nerds suck up to the cool kids even as they’re mocked behind their backs – or to their face.
“I don’t know how any of them manage to feed and dress themselves…”
But, of course, they don’t manage. They all have Mommas, or Momma-substitutes, to help them get through life. Some of them probably need help in the potty, as well as with meals and clothes.
Either you think those with power shouldn’t use it against weaker people or you think that’s when power works best.
Two things:
One of Greenwald’s regular trolls came up with “For now, authoritarianism is the only game in town” when someone wasted the time trying to explain Bob Altemeyer’s research to him. My eyes almost turned inside out on that one.
I just read Double Play, the fictional account of a guy working as Jackie Robinson’s bodyguard, by Robert B. Parker (the “Spenser” author). What I didn’t realize when my friend lent it to me, was that interweaved with the story was Parker’s own memoir re: growing up in western Mass in the 40’s. He talks about WWII, about everyone being obsessed with sex but not ever dealing with it honestly, about the racism he saw all around him, and about being a Dodgers fan.
He describes wondering why he didn’t find it convenient to be a racist when so many around him did. He relates that later on, partly as a result of counseling, he saw that he just sort of had an inherent sympathy for the underdog, that he otherwise couldn’t explain.
To me this ties in with a number of things like Altemeyer’s work; and leads me to my current mind-set that, to a great degree, and to my sorrow, a lot of this stuff is just hard-wired in people. As such, you’re not gonna change anybody. All you can do, IMHO, is try and give the ones who might be on the right side a chance to do the right thing, rather than just going along with the pricks and assholes.