battle to persuade Obama that he must unequivocally and publicly
disavow what those two jaded, decadent sadists just suggested was
necessary lest he risk Americans being killed. Good luck to us on that.
Considering Obama’s propensity for consensus, I would guess that he
will find some way to appease them. (Maybe he’ll vow to make sure that
the torturers don’t enjoy it, as a sop to the liberal freaks.)
But
I would suggest that Obama contemplate one little thing before he
decides to try to find “middle ground” on torture. It is a trap. If he
continues to torturein any way
or even tacitly agrees to allow it in certain circumstances, the
intelligence community will make sure it is leaked. They want
protection from both parties and there is no better way to do it than
to implicate Obama. And the result of that will be to destroy his
foreign policy.
If the man who represents the second chance
this country’s been given around the world to repudiate the horrors of
the Bush years is revealed to have perpetuated the same horrors, his
credibility and foreign policy will be in shambles. And there are many
people buried in the intelligence and military establishments who would
be happy to make sure that happens.
I’m going to be more blunt about this than Digby is. Quit imagining there’s a way around this that doesn’t make you the jerk. Quit trying to figure out how to do this without being accused of setting known terrorists free by sticky Republican pusbags who are trying to get work in the wake of Norm Coleman’s office being Krazy Glued shut. There is no way out of this that doesn’t make you the guy that has to say this:
debates continue to an extent, but we have endlessly tried to perfect
it so that they offer fair trials based on evidence without
compromising civil liberties. There is simply no need to invent
anything new. To the extent that “evidence” against detainees has been
tainted because it was extracted through torture, that probably should
have been considered before the torturing. Evidence obtained by torture
is inadmissable in every civilized court in the world, and it would
simply be unconstitutional to create a system that allowed it, not to
mention distasteful.
So the new president had best just say that, get it over with, let the monkeys fling shit at each other until they run out of shit or their arms get tired, whichever comes first, and then get back to work. Enough already. There’s no other way out of this that makes sense.
A.
Holy crap. “It is a liberal shibboleth that torture doesn’t work.” Holy frackin’ crap. This screams for an installment of the Weekend Update’s “Really?!?” schtick from the election.
People who interrogate prisoners for a living say that torture doesn’t work. There’s no shibboleth about that. And for fuck’s sake, you’d think that the people who seem so passionate about their Christianity might remember that the whole passion of Christ was FUCKING TORTURE!!!!! (Of course, they get off on that shit, so maybe it’s not the best argument I could make.)
At some point, somebody has to decide that what the villagers or the Republicans or anybody else says is less important than being a good American. I really don’t think it’s that complicated. Or that hard. I had hoped Obama was the guy. I still hope he is.
Torture doesn’t work. But of far, far greater importance is the fact that torture is wrong. Period.
The rethugs are screaming in order to distract themselves from the fact THEY are the ones that endorsed/allowed/looked the other way on torture going on.
Can we furnish the freed prisoners w/the addresses of the power-mongers that permitted such assholery to be visited upon them?
Elspeth
When you are doing something wrong, the first thing you have to do is stop doing that something. Is that so complicated? We, the USA, are doing two very major things wrong, and a whole lot of other things too, but two very major things – torturing people and holding them in prisons indefinitely without charges or trials. Both should cease on January 21st. Even if we “know” that some very bad people are in prison at GITMO, they have to be repatriated to their home countries or to friendly (to them) host countries. And, not one single act that can be considered torture should occur after January 21st, even if that seems to be an invitation to “terrorists” to attack us. Doing the right things isn’t supposed to be easy.
hoppy, I’m reminded of a quote from Increase Mather, who regretted his involvement in the Salem Witch Trials after the fact: “It were better that Ten Suspected Witches should escape, than that one Innocent Person should be Condemned.”
forget ‘does it work’. it diminishes the idea hat WE ARE BETTER. it makes us just like them. just like saddam.
The problem is the Dems like Pelosi and Feinstein approved of torture too and would also face indictment. How long do you think Obama will go after them? The GOP did a nice job of tarring everyone with their criminal activities, so that no one can be prosecuted. Amoral bastards.
just do georgee and dickie. the head.
Elspeth –
Can we furnish the freed prisoners w/the addresses of the power-mongers that permitted such assholery to be visited upon them?
That’s one of the best effing ideas I have heard yet!
My personal plan is to unconditionally pardon every schlep in GTMO, give them a green card, some $$ and an all-expense paid relocation to Wyonming – preferably in the same town Big Time Dick hangs out in.
SP
People who torture say torture doesn’t work? I’ve talked with people who torture and they say it DOES work, so you may want to check your sources on that.