Today On Holden’s Obsession With The Gaggle

I’m going to do a long bit from today’s gaggle on Cheney’s assertion that the Office of the Vice President is not part of the Executive Branch, but first I have to give Les Kinsolving his props.

Les Asks A Good One

Q Thank you, Dana. Two questions. In his statement, “all human life is sacred,” the President deplored what he termed, “the deliberate destruction of human embryos.” And my question: If a pregnant woman is medically diagnosed as facing death, unless she has a therapeutic abortion, does the President believe it is wrong to destroy the fetus to save the life of the mother?

MS. PERINO: I think that we’ve made public comments on this before regarding the health of the mother. And you’re raising complex ethical questions, which I’d refer you to the NIH to ask.

Q Well, all right. Is the President opposed to the destruction of any embryo resulting from gang rape or incest?

MS. PERINO: I think we’ve made comments on that, too, Les. We’ll get you those from before.

Q He’s made them before?

MS. PERINO: Yes, I’ll get those for you. Go ahead.

Let’s Open With Dana’s First Lie

Q Does the President think that the Information Security Oversight Office should be abolished?

MS. PERINO: No, and I don’t think that anyone has suggested that. I went back and I looked at this EO — I don’t know if anyone else had a chance to actually read it. I think one thing is clear: first of all, it’s the President of the United States who is the author of the EO, and is the sole enforcer of the EO, the executive order on classified materials. And it’s clear from the reading of it, the Vice President is not treated separately from the President in the EO. Agencies are treated separately, for just the small section on this ISOO provision. Everything else does apply, except for that one section, for the Vice President.

Q Including the reporting provision?

MS. PERINO: Correct.

Q So that — he is exempt from reporting? You support —

MS. PERINO: If you look at the EO, the President, in the performance of executive duties, and the Vice President are treated separately from agencies. The President did not intend — I went back and looked into this — the President did not intend for the Vice President to be treated separately from how he would treat himself. Agencies are to report to ISOO, and they do. I don’t think there’s any suggestion that no one else is complying. The Vice President was not intended to be separate from the President in this regard.

So Legal Scholar Dana Peroxide’s Reading Of The Executive Order Is That Cheney Is Exempt — Funny How Cheney Never Asserted He Was Exempt, But Instead Claimed The VIce President Was Not In THe Executive Branch

Q But part of the rationale the Vice President’s office gave is that as President of the Senate, he’s part of the legislative branch, almost distancing himself from the executive branch.

MS. PERINO: I saw those reports yesterday, as well, and I think that while that’s an interesting constitutional discussion about the separation of powers and different branches, between executive branch and legislative branch, and different functions, under the role — as his unique role as the Vice President of the United States. The point of Chairman Waxman’s letter yesterday regarded this small portion of an executive order of which the President is the sole enforcer, and of which he did not intend for the President [sic] to be treated separately from himself.

Q I’m a little confused here. Is the President’s office and the Vice President’s office, are they handling this the same way? In other words, Waxman was asserting that the Vice President’s office was saying, we don’t want to be inspected to make sure that we are following the procedures laid out in this EO. Is the President — does he feel the same way?

MS. PERINO: The President and the Vice President are complying with all the rules and regulations regarding the handling of classified material and making sure that it is safeguarded and protected.

What is different is, regarding that small section of this ISOO office, that they are not subject to those — they are subordinate to the sole enforcer of the EO, which is the President of the United States, and they are not subject to such investigation — as I understand it, as I read the EO and as I had preliminary discussions in between the gaggle and today.

A Good One

Q Well, then why did the Vice President not have any issue with this in 2001, 2002?

MS. PERINO: That I don’t know. All I know is what I have here, which is the executive order that was released in 2002, I think, did not intend to treat the Vice President any differently than he would treat the President.

What Does Chimpy Think?

Q Yes, Dana, what are you saying? So the President supports the Vice President saying that he doesn’t want these inspections?

MS. PERINO: I don’t think that he — it’s not a matter of wanting, it’s a matter of who’s subject to them. And I think that it’s important to remember, the Vice President, his office yesterday said that they are in full compliance with all laws regarding classified materials, as is this President, and the President expects that of everyone here at the White House and of all the agencies across the executive branch that handle classified information.

Q Then why isn’t it public?

Q So is he supporting — so he’s supporting what the Vice President is doing, by saying he’s not part of the executive branch —

MS. PERINO: If you go back and you read the EO, it’s — the President’s intention was never to separate the Vice President out from himself. The President, as the sole enforcer of the EO, is instructing agencies on how to handle classified material on a range of issues. The issue that we’re talking about yesterday — that Chairman Waxman was talking about in his letter yesterday is a very narrow one.

Q But the people at the National Archives say that they are meeting with resistance from the Vice President’s office, and only the Vice President’s office, not from the White House, not from the Office of the President.

MS. PERINO: That’s what I just said, I don’t think that there’s any — I don’t think there’s been any complaint about compliance, except for, in this regards, to the Vice President’s office. And as I just said, the President’s intention was not to have him separate. If you read that, that’s clear in the EO. In the EO, as well, the ISOO does have the capability to go to the Department of Justice and ask for an opinion, of which they have done.

Q They did that in January and still haven’t heard anything.

MS. PERINO: You’ll have to put that question to the Department of Justice.

Q So that they have to apply to the President for any documents that the Vice President has charge of.

MS. PERINO: All of the — all of the President — all of the President’s documents and all the Vice President’s documents are safeguarded, they are held, they are held in the Archives as part of the Presidential Records Act. And all of those rules and regulations are followed.

This small section regarding just the reporting requirements to the group that — the ISOO that’s out of the National Archives is different.

This Has To Be Helen

Q Why? He’s a public servant, paid by us. He’s accountable.

MS. PERINO: And all the laws and regulations regarding classified materials are being complied with. And that’s what you, as a taxpayer, should expect.

Q How do we know that?

MS. PERINO: Because I think that if there weren’t, there are other ways for people to challenge and find out.

I’m Not Absurd, You’re Absurd!

Q Dana, what do you make of what Congressman Waxman referred to as “absurd,” which was the Vice President’s contention that his office is not part of the executive branch?

MS. PERINO: As I said, I think that that is an interesting constitutional question that people can debate. What I think is absurd is —

Q But do you agree with his contention?

MS. PERINO: — it’s — I think what was heard is Chairman Waxman —

Q Hang on a second, do you agree with the —

MS. PERINO: — asserting — I think what’s absurd is Chairman Waxman asserting —

Q Hang on a second. Do you think with —

MS. PERINO: I think what is absurd is Chairman Waxman asserting some sort of authority over the President regarding an executive order, of which he is the sole enforcer.

Q Do you agree with the contention that the Office of the Vice President is not part of the executive branch?

MS. PERINO: What I know — and I am not a lawyer; and this is an interesting constitutional question that legal scholars can debate and I’m sure you’ll find plenty of them inside the beltway — is that the Vice President has a unique role in our United States government. He is not only the Vice President of the United States, but in that role he is also the President of the Senate. I will let him go ahead and —

Q So there’s a fourth branch of government.

MS. PERINO: — I will let that debate be held. But what I’m answering questions on in regard to this morning was Chairman Waxman’s accusations about this small provision, going back and reading the EO and realizing that the President did not intend to have the Vice President treated any differently than himself; and remembering that the executive order is enforced solely by the President of the United States. I think this is a little bit of a non-issue.

Return Of The Good Question

Q But, Dana, the director of the Information Security Oversight Office, in his letter to the Attorney General, says that the Vice President’s office did initially comply in 2001 and 2002, and then stopped complying. They view that the Vice President’s office should be participating and is not, and further suggest that the response from Counsel to the Vice President was to eliminate the role of this office in handling and supervising how these classified documents are dealt with.

MS. PERINO: I am not disputing that there is a dispute in regards to how this executive order should be — who should comply with the executive order in regards to ISOO’s questions about the Vice President’s office. They have the right to seek a clarification from the Department of Justice, of which they’ve asked for. That has nothing to do with the President or our office, in terms of the timing of when that’s released. I’ll ask you to take that to the Department of Justice; I haven’t talked to them about that today.

What, Does Chimpy Think?

Q Does the President think the Vice President is too secretive?

MS. PERINO: I think the President thinks that the Vice President is a great representor of the United States and that he complies with all the laws regarding secret documents, classified documents, and that he’s someone who truly believes in the institution of the presidency and in keeping that intact.

Q Does the President think that the Vice President — does he agree with the Vice President’s handling of this matter?

MS. PERINO: I don’t see any reason not to agree with it, especially —

Q So that’s a yes?

MS. PERINO: — when you read the plain face of the EO.

Q So he’s not going to tell him —

Q And he’s not concerned at all that there’s too much secrecy; that he complied with it before; or why he wouldn’t want to do the same thing he was doing before?

MS. PERINO: I think that what the President wants to make sure of is that all of the rules and regulations regarding classified materials are being followed, and he is assured that that is the case.

Q Even though it’s still being looked at, and even though they’re looking at this as an executive branch?

What About The White House Counsel?

Q Dana, can I just clarify — since he’s the sole enforcer of this executive order, was the White House’s Counsels Office knowledgeable about the letter trail, the dispute trail, when you consulted them today to ask about —

MS. PERINO: Well, as you know, I think that this letter trail goes back many years, and we have a new Counsel and many new people in the Counsel’s Office. So I’m not exactly clear on that.

Q But you have members of the Counsel’s Office who preceded Mr. Fielding, so I’m curious, when you consulted, can we write or say that the White House Counsel’s Office, on behalf of the President, was fully knowledgeable of the dispute before —

MS. PERINO: I can’t tell you that right now, because I don’t know, but I can check. There are a lot of new people, and I can’t tell you that the people that I talked to were here before.

Q But, I mean, there could have been a paper trail —

MS. PERINO: I’ll go back and check. The people I talked to weren’t necessarily here before.

Dana’s Explanation Falls Flat

Q Can we just go back to this phrase that the President never intended for the Vice President to be treated any differently than — I’ll confess, I’m missing the whole thing here. The Vice President is not getting treated any differently, he’s acting differently, according to the National Archive.

MS. PERINO: No, but in the EO, who is directed and how they respond — if you look on page 18 of the EO, when you have a chance, there’s a distinction regarding the Vice President versus what is an agency. And the President also, as the author of an EO, and the person responsible for interpreting the EO, did not intend for the Vice President to be treated as an agency, and that’s clear.

Q But the Archive doesn’t have an issue with, say, the way the President is handling this; the inspectors, the procedures, the protocols are all being followed. It’s the Vice President who is acting differently.

MS. PERINO: Right, but that’s because the President never — the President treats him differently in this EO, separate from an agency. And again, I’m not disputing that there’s a dispute that the ISOO has with the Vice President’s office, and they have a right under this EO to take that to the Justice Department. But the Vice President was not to be treated — to be interpreted to be treated separately from the President in this executive order.

Make Cheney Explain Himself

Q Can we expect to hear from the Vice President as to why his office did comply for two years, and then made a decision to stop complying?

Q Bring David in here.

Q Why is it separate?

MS. PERINO: If I could — I’ll ask the Vice President if he’ll come to the press briefing room and answer your questions.

Q Wow.

Q I mean, it is a little curious that all of this — this breaks, and all we get is like a line response from the Office of the Vice President, we’re confident that everything is kosher. I mean, I —

MS. PERINO: I’m here today to try to flesh it out a little bit more for you, and I’m doing the best I can with all that I’ve got.

You Can Trust Dick

Q But why does the Vice President not want to be seen to be in compliance?

MS. PERINO: There’s no question that he is in compliance, in terms of the meat of the issue, which is classified — the handling of classified documents. It’s just simply a matter of a small portion of an executive order regarding reporting requirements, of which he is not subject to, and — the interpretation of the EO.

Q But if he’s not monitored, we don’t know that —

Q Why isn’t he subject to this?

MS. PERINO: Because the President gets to decide whether or not he should be treated separately, and he’s decided that he should.

Q Why did the President decide that he shouldn’t be subjected to this?

MS. PERINO: And if you look at the EO, throughout the Vice President’s office is called out on many other issues, and making sure that they are complying, just as with any other agency. But in this regard, it’s different.

Q But if he’s not monitored, how do we know that, that he’s in compliance?

MS. PERINO: I think there are many other ways — I’m not a lawyer, but —

Q How? Because it’s not as though —

MS. PERINO: Well, Victoria, maybe we can let you in there and you can have an interview and check out his classified materials.

Q The office is not giving away information.

MS. PERINO: Right, they’re not giving away classified information, either.

Q Who is making sure they’re in compliance?

MS. PERINO: That’s a good question. I’m not positive.

Q But you can stand up there and say they’re in compliance, but you don’t know why or how or who is checking on it.

MS. PERINO: What I said is that the Vice President’s office says that they are in compliance, and I can tell you on behalf of the President that we are in compliance with all matters regarding classified materials.

Q And it’s just them saying we’re in compliance?

MS. PERINO: I’ll see if there’s any other ways. The ISOO is not the only — I would believe that ISOO is not the only agency that can check that.

Again With The Good Question

Q Dana, when you make requests to the OVP about this, could you please specify that the big, large, takeaway question is, why no problem in 2001, 2002, and it starts in 2003? Does it have to do with the war, does it have to do with Scooter Libby, does this have to do with what? Why then?

MS. PERINO: I will check into it. I don’t know when — I don’t know why the change, and I’ll see if there was any different interpretation —

Q Why is an exemption at all? Why is he exempt?

MS. PERINO: He’s not exempt from following the laws of the United States. He’s exempt just from this reporting requirement in this particular executive order.

Q And why was an announcement not made back then when they stopped reporting, that in fact this was the case, that he was to be treated the same as the President?

MS. PERINO: Why wasn’t there a press release announcing it?

Q Yes.

MS. PERINO: We issued the EO. You could have — it says it right here. It was released publicly.

Q There was no announcement like this. In other words, nobody knew.

Fear Of The AP

Q Can we go on to Guantanamo? Was there a meeting scheduled for today to discuss Guantanamo?

MS. PERINO: There’s meetings scheduled regularly to talk about Guantanamo, they happen frequently, they happen often, because people are charged with the responsibilities that the President has given them to try to close down that facility. Yes, there was going to be a meeting today, but there was a determination that it wasn’t needed.

Q Was it because of the AP story?

MS. PERINO: I think that the decision to make — to not have the meeting happened late in the day after that story came out.

Q So it was because of that?

MS. PERINO: What I can tell you is that meeting was not a decisional meeting, there was nothing imminent coming out of that meeting, and that there are people who are charged with — tasked with working on this issue every day, not only here at the White House, but at the Defense Department, State Department and other agencies, to make sure that we are figuring out a way to repatriate these individuals, so they can go back to their countries in a way that we can make sure that they’re going to be held, and not a threat to anybody else, as well as be treated humanely.

[snip]

Q Why would you — they said they were nearing a decision. Why would you cancel a meeting after a press report about that?

MS. PERINO: Look, there was a decision that a meeting wasn’t necessary. But that should not lead you to think that there aren’t people who are either talking about it today or working towards it. In fact, I think today —

Q I’m sorry, but why wasn’t the meeting necessary? I mean, the timing was a little strange, and then the White House was able to say, there’s no meeting scheduled for tomorrow, when you start getting press reports. Was the meeting canceled because of the press report?

MS. PERINO: I wasn’t there to decide why the meeting was canceled. All I know is that the meeting was canceled, it wasn’t — I was told that it wasn’t necessary to have it.

Dana Gets Helenized

Q What are they charged with? What are they — what did they do?

MS. PERINO: These are unlawful enemy combatants that intended to harm the United States or other Western civilization —

Q That we have designated — were they defending their own country?

MS. PERINO: No, I don’t think they were. They were intending to hurt innocent people.

Q This isn’t a matter of thinking. Do you know?

MS. PERINO: Mark, you’re on this topic?

Hoist On His Own Retard

Q The President expressed his concerns to the Vietnamese President about the human rights record in Vietnam. Did the Vietnamese President turn the tables on the President, as President Putin did recently, and mention that there’s some questions that have been raised internationally about the U.S.’s record on Guantanamo?

MS. PERINO: No. And I can tell you that we are confident that people are treated humanely at Guantanamo Bay.

Q I’m sorry — the holding of prisoners indefinitely without charge is considered worldwide to be a violation of human rights, so —

MS. PERINO: What the President has said is that if there are — one, we’ll do the military commissions, which are underway; two, this was a matter where we had never dealt with this before. We have an enemy who does not conform to any of the traditional rules of law. But we also knew that we couldn’t leave them out there on the battlefield. Their intent was to kill innocent people.

6 thoughts on “Today On Holden’s Obsession With The Gaggle

  1. just astonished says:

    You’d think that Dana would actually want to prepare before she talks to the press. But apparently not.
    And I love the IANAL logic too:
    MS. PERINO: What I know — and I am not a lawyer, …
    MS. PERINO: I think there are many other ways — I’m not a lawyer, but —
    MS. PERINO: No, but in the EO, who is directed and how they respond — if you look on page 18 of the EO, when you have a chance, there’s a distinction regarding the Vice President versus what is an agency. And the President also, as the author of an EO, and the person responsible for interpreting the EO, did not intend for the Vice President to be treated as an agency, and that’s clear.
    Being pinned down and having evasions stripped away again and again by the gaggle shouldn’t be this easy. I wish she had a clue.

  2. virgotex says:

    And you’re raising complex ethical questions, which I’d refer you to the NIH to ask.
    “Sorry, this is Abuse, specifically ‘Pre-emptive Vanity Wars and Denying Habeas Corpus to alleged Illegal Combatants.”
    “Complex Ethical Questions” is down the hall in 12-A. ”

  3. Hoppy says:

    This is the first time I heard about Bush issuing a signing statement in regards to the Constitution itself. That statement apparently says that Article II of the constitution will be interpreted to exclude the Vice President from the Executive Branch. But, Bush seems to have neglected to mention, in that signing statement, that the Vice President, a member of the Legislative Branch, has authority over the President, a member of the Executive Branch. This is the subject that Dana thinks is in need of some debate by the experts. And, I agree with her, because, if the Vice President, a member of the Legislative Branch, has the power over the President, and he does have that power by virtue of his ability to settle a tie vote on conviction of the President in an impeachment proceeding, then it must follow that the Vice President, or is it the President, must thereby have…shoot, I lost my chain of thought of some chain anyway. I have got to go read that again.

  4. The_Other_Sarah says:

    From the division of “even a blind hog can find an acorn once in awhile,” Kinsolving asks really good questions.

  5. Nora says:

    Was there a followup to Perrino’s last statement on Gitmo? Specifically, yeah, we have the military commissions, but so far the commissions have held that of the TWO people (out of four hundred some odd) who have been brought before the commissions, the commission didn’t have jurisdiction over either one of them. How, exactly, are the military commissions a safeguard when they can’t do anything jurisdictionally with respect to the people being held there?
    And while partisans can play games with Dick Cheney’s status, the fact is that the office of the vice president is CREATED in the Second article of the Constitution — the executive branch — and not in the First article, which creates the legislative branch, so there is no basis for saying that he’s a member of the legislative branch. And you’d think all those so-called strict constructionalists and original intent people would see that clearly — except that it’s in Dick Cheney’s interest to obfuscate that.
    What WAS Cheney doing in 2002? Why the change? Perrino doesn’t answer that, does she?

  6. Paul in LA says:

    This just in from The ODQ (Office of Dan Quayle), Your Fourth Branch of Gobmint:
    “It isn’t pollution that’s harming the environment. It’s the impurities in our air and water that are doing it.” — The ODQ
    “Norman, what are you doing downstairs. Are you making love with that dirty WHORE?”
    “Not now, ma, I’m being The ODQ.”
    “Come up here and rub your mother’s feet.”

    Remember, The ODQ is Your Fourth Branch of Gobmint: Higher than You, Lower than Nobody, The Scowling Face of the Corporations, and the Shadow behind Your Shadow Gobmint.
    “Smiles are for underlings.”

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